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| | Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW | |
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MaFish 5 Time World Champion
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Location : Barnsley Number of posts : 2244 Favourite Wrestler : Big Daddy
| Subject: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:14 pm | |
| What Raven started in ECW went on to be redone in every promotion he wrestled in since, with Raven's Nest, the loner cult gimmick, everything that could only really reach it's potential in ECW. Just to give a little back story of Raven and his career before he debuted the gimmick. Scott Levy, the man who would gain success under the guise of a brain washing, grunge inspired cult leader wrestled under different name's during his early career, Scotty The Body, 'Palm Beach Heart Throb' Scott Anthony, Scotty Flamingo, and Johnny Polo in WWF. In January of 1995 he made a historic debut in the now defunc Extreme Championship Wrestling along side Stevie Richards. The week's prior to Raven's Debut, Stevie Richards had been teasing a new partner, even going as far as using ring name's based around Levy's previous run's, such as Stevie Flamingo, Stevie The Body and Stevie Polo. From what seemed like a meer partner for Richards quickly established to be more of a leader figure to Richards. On his debut, managing Stevie Richards against Hack Myers, Raven stood at ringside, establishing some key component's to the character, the expressionless face, neither cheering on Richards or trying to interfer, meerly observing, the aura at the time would've been immense I would imagine. Richards beat Myers via a 'loaded' boot from Raven. At the Doubles Tables event he again managed Richards against Tommy Dreamer, he managed to some how add something great to the match while taking nothing away from the other wrestler's, again he just stood at ring side, allowed Richards to do what he alway's did, the arrogant half coward routine, and Tommy Dreamer, who had been impressing both American and Japanese fan's with some great matches in his own right, to do what he had done. The finish to that match starting innitially a year long, but reccuring for year's afterward's, a feud that would shape ECW's direction at the time. Paul Heyman mention's in The Rise And Fall Of ECW that the Raven character, upon leaving for WCW, had so much more to give and could only give it in ECW, I think he has a point because of the more mature thing's going on in ECW at the time gave him more option's, but then again what better way to develop a character than to move it to the bigger league? It can only be good you would think? But less than 2 year's in WCW he was back in ECW. What I will say regarding his run's with other companies, while it was still good in many people's eye's, no doubt about the impact he made in those promotion's, especially to those unfamiliar with his ECW run, but many of the ECW run had been rehashed into, the WCW's version of Raven's Nest with The Flock, TNA's with The Gathering, Serotonin etc, I wouldn't call it a straight rip off as I feel that was what the Raven character was about, a cult leader need's a cult, but more than that, these stable's brought a bunch of talented kid's, future main eventer's into the spot light, Billy Kidman, CM Punk, Kazarian, even Mick Foley very breifly, and leser talent such as Mickey James, an early Gangrel, Matt Bentley, Vampiro, ICP, Johnny Devine, Horace Hogan, Chris Kanyon, The Eliminator's (Saturn and Cronus), The Pitt Bull's, the lesser Dudley's (Big Dick, Dudley Dudley, and Lil Snot), Blue Meanie and Nova along with Richards. So in that respect you cant really complain with some of the name's there. With a great ECW run, a very good WCW run, a slightly disapointing WWF run and an oft decent run in TNA, which apart from being a little gimmick heavy with matches and such (Raven's Rule's, Clockwork Orange, Hangman's Horror, etc...), was good at time's, other's a little repetetive of time's gone by. Even a mentionable feud with CM Punk in ROH before he joined TNA and took Punk under his wing. A great debut, a big run over all the major promotion's of this and last decade, still going on today, the Raven character has been consistently strong. The Dreamer feud, as mentioned, lasting most of his and Dreamer's entire ECW run together, aswell as an infamous feud with The Sandman that again lasted near 2 year's, and with 2 reign's as ECW Heavyweight Champion, 4 time ECW Tag team Champion, a run as WCW US Champion, one as WCW Tag Champion and a record setting 27 time WWF Hardcore Champion as well as an NWA TNA title run, you can say with great pride that one of the greatest gimmick's in pro wrestling, having held title's at every promotion, was more than a cult, he was a phenemenon. | |
| | | the-gaffer Heath Slater's Kid
Location : Glasgow Number of posts : 12238 Favourite Wrestler : CM Punk
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:55 pm | |
| Great thread, Raven is one of my most popular characters, I was a little bit put off when he first debuted in ECW though to be fair and probably didn't give him the time his talent deserved in his initial run because I just kept thinking Johnny Polo Johnny Polo Johnny Polo, once I got over it though and looked Raven for what he was then I couldn't help but be impressed by what he was doing, in time looking back you realise what he is actually saying as well, at the time it was just words, now you can listen to his promos and understand the intellect and intelligence he put in them.
I can't think of anything he done in ECW in his first run that could have improved his character, he was pretty much flawless in that respect, was a tad disappointed in his WCW run and very disappointed in his WWF run despite being a 27 time Hardcore Champion.
With guys like Kane and The Undertaker at the top of their game and Mick Foley calling it a day from full time competition then I believe their was a major opening for some serious twisted angles that Raven could have excelled in, I think a big run with The Undertaker or Kane in a dark program then it could really have propelled him at the time to the upper echelons in the WWF.
He is one guy at the moment who I would love to see in an instant back in the WWE if they where prepared to use him the correct way, I'm hoping this run in TNA will help once again establish him as one of the top entertainers in Professional Wrestling in the USA | |
| | | MaFish 5 Time World Champion
Country :
Location : Barnsley Number of posts : 2244 Favourite Wrestler : Big Daddy
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:32 pm | |
| With his WCW run, looking back it could've been alot worse, he was still doing what he was doing in ECW just on a lower scale, I put it down to one of two thing's, they either had a booker who knew how to carry it on from ECW, or they gave him creative control to manage his character to some extent, probably the latter.
His ECW debut was one of the best debut's because of how everybody saw him at the time, as either Scotty Flamingo or Johnny Polo, and that being how they remembered him, and this gimmick being such a stark contrast to the surfer/ rich kid stuff.
I kinda believe that he was thought of in the rank's of today's R Truth, while he could easily be a top draw in the indies or TNA, he just didn't fit with the crop that was in the WWF (or top tier in WCW) at the time, a 'Taker feud would've been good in theory, but I think he would just have been overshadowed, their gimmick's had a dark lining, but where Raven was the small time cultist, 'Taker had his own Ministry, Raven with brain washing, 'Taker with his 'power's'. That being said, he didn't need to get jobbed out like he did, there was plenty he could've done mid card.
In WCW he was mid card which did suit him very well, he just could'nt go to the extent he could in ECW.
In TNA though I have mixed feeling's, they alway's go down the Abyss route, and throw in a bunch of gimmick's for no reason, but I like what he did for Punk, Devine and Kaz, and what he's doing for Dafney these day's, back with the massive stable's of ECW/ WCW was his time to shine, TNA he got a group of like 3 up and comers (Punk, Mickey James and Julio Dinero in The Gathering, Kaz, Devine and Matt Bentley in Serotonin) and of those Punk is nearly a main eventer in WWE where Raven couldn't, Mickey James is a top Diva, Kaz had all that hype before he did Suicide, how he was going to be the next big main eventer in TNA, Johnny Devine had huge potential too, and Matt Bentley, aka Micheal Shane, HBK's cousin. | |
| | | the-gaffer Heath Slater's Kid
Location : Glasgow Number of posts : 12238 Favourite Wrestler : CM Punk
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:48 pm | |
| I'm not so sure, I think Undertaker/Raven if done properly and allowed to mature properly could have been as brilliant as Undertaker/Mankind was in 1996 | |
| | | MaFish 5 Time World Champion
Country :
Location : Barnsley Number of posts : 2244 Favourite Wrestler : Big Daddy
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:25 pm | |
| I dont think the timing would've been helpfull in that scenario either, Raven joined WWF in 2000, which if my memory serves me correct was when 'Taker was injured and came back as the American Bad Ass at Judgment Day so there wasn't time to build it up as good as it should be, then 2001 saw the InVasion, which did have both wrestler's on opposite side's, but 'Taker was feuding with DDP, and by this time Raven was doing the j o b on Heat.
I do see how it would be good, though if 'Taker was the heel it would've been more viable, him trying to recruit Raven to The Ministry or something, but then Raven too is a better heel, I just wouldn't know where I would start booking that feud in WWF at the time. | |
| | | the-gaffer Heath Slater's Kid
Location : Glasgow Number of posts : 12238 Favourite Wrestler : CM Punk
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:08 pm | |
| Thats why I mentioned Kane, if Taker was unavailable then going up against a face Kane could have been epic | |
| | | pablo1610 Fandango
Number of posts : 610
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:23 pm | |
| i have to admit i had never seen or heard or raven until he made his mark on WWF, and they didnt use him to the extent that ECW and WCW used him, so until the boom of the wrestling internet community for my generation, raven was not a credible character to think of.
after research and watching videos of the old ECW and therefore raven, along with being a TNA fan, i can say raven is one of the more enjoyable characters set in stone by ECW. truly a great worker in every sense of the term | |
| | | Reaper Heath Slater's Kid
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| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:41 pm | |
| Raven is better on the mic than anyone in wwe and tna, his promo before Slammiversary was brilliant it really built up the match. The difference between the Raven character and any other character (Undertaker, Kane..etc) is even though Raven has had the same gimmick for 14 years it isn't stale it just shows how well he plays it. | |
| | | the-gaffer Heath Slater's Kid
Location : Glasgow Number of posts : 12238 Favourite Wrestler : CM Punk
| Subject: Re: Genius of The Raven Gimmick- ECW Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:19 pm | |
| I think the secret behind the longevity of liking the Raven character is he has never been pushed down our throats to the extent of The Undertaker, and he didn't stick around long enough to become stale like Kane, when your as good on the stick as Raven is then its hard to become stale if you keep your hunger for the business, I think his secret is he keeps disappearing to recharge his batteries and only comes back when he has some serious plans for his character | |
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